Which is your preferred messaging app? I just want some insights about these two.
You may share other messaging apps too.
Do you want it to be so complicated that no one you know in real life is able to use it for more than two weeks before they make some kind of mistake or change that deletes their entire message history and identity? Matrix
Do you want a slim chance that friends and family might use it, but you have to listen to privacy nutjobs tell you your app is a CIA NSA PsyOp and you might as well cc: potus(at)whitehouse(dot)gov all your messages, it’s run by an american non-profit obviously it can’t be trusted? Signal
XMPP is the standard messaging protocol. I recommend Conversations for android, but of course any worthwhile protocol has multiple independent frontends.
Signal (but actually Molly)
I also prefer Molly as client.
Can you elaborate why ? I’m not sure I see a real difference
Molly has more features and it’s developed by indie devs.
This is how I explained Matrix to my mom: its like an email address, but for chat. You can chat at me, even if we aren’t using the same server, like someone can send an email from Gmail to Hotmail. She got set up and promptly went back to texting me every dang time.
Matrix is open source and federated, end of the story.
So, I host a Matrix Stack and I bridge to Signal (and Discord). It’s the best of both worlds – all my messages funnel through one application.
Seeing as you’re using Lemmy/PieFed, I’m going to guess you’ve got a handle on how federation works. I’d suggest Matrix.
Signal is a centralized, US-based service which requires your phone number (thus your real identity, IE name and address), has social networking graphs of everyone you talk to, and must forward that information to the US government when asked, as well as (by law) not tell you that they’ve been asked to do so. During the Obama era, 60 NSLs were issued for this private information every single day.
People overlook its privacy concerns for the same reason they do with apple: it has a shiny interface and is easy to use, and makes people very attached to it. Behind all that, is a surveillance network that its creators have explicitly said they do not want it to be able to run in a decentralized, private manner.
It has a long history of privacy offenses below (such as refusing to publish its server’s source code for years, its reliance on other US tech services (amazon, google), US-government funding, and a US-defense-tank friendly administration) which get ignored or shouted down by many of those above. See the article below.
Pretty much any alternative is better, as long as its not hosted in a five-eyes country, and especially if it doesn’t require phone numbers or real identities like signal does.
I personally have been using SimpleX for friends and real life contacts, and Matrix for larger more anonymous group chats.
Insightful! Thanks. I agree and I’ll give SimpleX a try as others suggested.
has social networking graphs of everyone you talk to
Source?
US government funding does not mean it’s immediately bad… The internet, thr flu vaccine, closed captioning, and wheather radar were all funded by the US government. A truly secure messaging encryption is beneficial to the United States, and is evem good enough for the president apparently.
Since their messages are truly secure, it wouldn’t matter where you store them. Just store them in the cheapest places possible. It being centralized makes it far more usable to the average person, making it much more likely for them to use.
Read the linked doc, because it’s clear you didn’t.
I read it. They also have no source or evidence.
Signals database, which we must assume is compromised due to its centralized and US domiciled nature, has a few important pieces of data;
You can’t simply say “we must assume” as evidence. In fact, they implemented “Sealed sender” in 2018 where they are not able to see who the message is being sent to.
They are also legally required to provide all information they have on users for warrants and subpoenas. Any time they do that, they post the (slightly redacted) document they provided to the courts. See the list here: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ This confirms they did not have any metadata on those users. The only info they have is what they openly state (phone number, date of registration, and last time a message was sent).
While there may be other US government requests they are not alllwed to disclose, they were legally required to provide the same information to the courts, and we can see what they provided.
And sure, while the US government funds Signal, you know who else endorses it? Edward fucking Snowden. If anyone knows about secure messaging, it’s the man that physically removes the microphone and camera from his phones before using them.
You can’t simply say “we must assume” as evidence.
Okay yeah you definitely didn’t read it. Large sections in that doc just before that are on phone number identifiers, NSLs, and 5-eyes countries, the US goverment pushing signal in privacy spaces… literally the reasons why signal isn’t trustworthy. Unless you can tell me what an NSL is, then I’ll assume you didn’t read it.
While there may be other US government requests they are not alllwed to disclose, they were legally required to provide the same information to the courts, and we can see what they provided.
Did you ignore the large section on NSLs? These come with a gag order, meaning its illegal for signal to notify their users about them being spied on.
In fact, they implemented “Sealed sender” in 2018 where they are not able to see who the message is being sent to.
This is a “just trust me” from signal, since neither of us have access to their centralized DB, but you also ignored two paragraphs down, where it showed that with message timestamps and recipient information, this would be trivial to find the real sender of a message, regardless of sealed sender. Again, actually open source software can’t say “just trust me” like signal can, we actually have to show code to prove it, and let people run that code in a private manner.
And sure, while the US government funds Signal, you know who else endorses it? Edward fucking Snowden. If anyone knows about secure messaging, it’s the man that physically removes the microphone and camera from his phones before using them.
Elon musk and jack dorsey also endorse signal. An endorsement means nothing, especially for centralized software based in a 5-eyes country.
Good question. I looked in the attached essay source, and he covers this there https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#social-network-graphs
This is my comment to the other person, I just don’t want to type the same ideas out a second time:
I read it. They also have no source or evidence.
Signals database, which we must assume is compromised due to its centralized and US domiciled nature, has a few important pieces of data;
You can’t simply say “we must assume” as evidence. In fact, they implemented “Sealed sender” in 2018 where they are not able to see who the message is being sent to.
They are also legally required to provide all information they have on users for warrants and subpoenas. Any time they do that, they post the (slightly redacted) document they provided to the courts. See the list here: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ This confirms they did not have any metadata on those users. The only info they have is what they openly state (phone number, date of registration, and last time a message was sent).
While there may be other US government requests they are not alllwed to disclose, they were legally required to provide the same information to the courts, and we can see what they provided.
And sure, while the US government funds Signal, you know who else endorses it? Edward fucking Snowden. If anyone knows about secure messaging, it’s the man that physically removes the microphone and camera from his phones before using them.
Signal is more stable & simple to set up. So for its intended use, getting people to actually talk to me on it, it’s better.
Matrix is obviously better as a Discord replacement. It doesn’t require a phone number which is also good. Not centrally managed so easier to decouple from big tech corruption. So it is better in those ways.
I agree. Signal is easier to use and to get people switch to it since the UI/UX are vey similar to other big platforms.
Isn’t Signal a CIA honeypot?
Matrix is just far too convoluted. Signal seems to be the easiest one to use. SimpleX is the best.
What is complicated about Matrix?
deleted by creator
I created this to help find active matrix rooms https://activematrixrooms.com/
I use both signal and matrix.
Cool! Thanks.
Only because nobody answered with this one:
IRC
Decentralized and an open protocol. Client setup to connect is not so straightforward, but it’s a one and done. Very robust.
I’m allergic to centralized communication schemes, though I do use signal to communicate with one person.
I want to research some of the other suggestions that have been brought up, so thank you for the post!
That’s new to me. Thanks!
Signal. Matrix was made by Israeli spyware company Amdocs and when an employee was asked about it after the split to a UK company they pretended like Amdocs wasn’t caught in multiple global spyware scandals already.
But they say Signal is centralized, and hosted in the US.
Matrix is literally an open standard, use a server and client written by people you trust, or write your own.
Signal is made by a private company and is completely closed source.
Signal is open source but it’s hosted centrally. So you’re trusting their server.
Matrix is a protocol it’s not hosted anywhere. But the primary developer and host instance now called Element.
But it being created and initially bankrolled by an Israeli spyware company known for creating backdoors, and the lead devs still refusing to acknowledge that doesn’t inspire me much more confidence.
If you want privacy SimpleX seems like better option than Matrix.
You can host a server which uses software not written by Element. Same for the client.
I don’t trust the Signal devs because I have no reason to. I don’t want to use anyone else’s servers unless I’m paying them or they’re paying me 😅
And I love swapping/trying new clients.
You glossed over the fact that it came from Israel’s intelligence-community. Its design is woeful–that’s the protocol, regardless of client or server implementation. The project reeks of a state-backed program to get ahead of the increasing desire for encryption in everyday communications. Yet encryption has always been an after thought within that program. All those bridges to funnel different protocols into the program.
Think its relatively new, but theres also chatto
Interesting…
So it’s against federation
Delta chat and session (RIP): they dont ask for accounts or ID to chat
Have you checked out Arcane Chat?
Nope, Is in fdroid?
It is a fork of Delta Chat. Not that I know it’s better
I feel uneasy about Signal being an app centralized in the USA, but it is the only one streamlined enough to be usable by non tech-savvy friends and family. I wonder if it will fall prey to Chat Control in Europe, so the time to explore alternatives will soon be upon us.
So far, I have heard of XMPP, Matrix, Delta chat and SimpleX. Never got friends to switch to XMPP or Matrix for more than one conversation, so I guess we’re just f*cked.
Me neither. In fact, all my friends and almost all people here are only using Messenger and Telegram.
